Former 'Maddie Cop' interview

See The McCann Files archive:  Gonçalo Amaral - The Interviews (July '08)

Exclusive in English: Former 'Maddie Cop' interview
31 July 2008
The Portugal News

Brendan de Beer
Dated: 28 July 2008, Appeared online: 31 July 2008

In an interview staged only a short walk from the regional PJ police headquarters in Faro over the weekend, Gonçalo Amaral, the former leading detective in the case involving the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, has an open and frank conversation with The Portugal News.

Lambasted by the British media, and ignored by much of the Portuguese written press since the launch of his controversial book last week (which the Correia da Manhã newspaper has assisted in promoting), Gonçalo Amaral explains his reasoning behind certain methods of investigation, and stresses his actions to date have not been to accuse anyone, rather, he argues, his focus has been about the pursuit of truth.

The Portugal News: Did you leak information about the investigation to the media?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I never had anything to do with leaks. We have to look at from where these leaks could have originated. A number of entities worked with us during the investigations and we cannot rule out the possibility that some of these leaks originated in Britain. As a matter of fact, when the FSS handed over their report to Portuguese police, we kept it under wraps, but a British daily was the first to appear with extracts of the FSS's findings.

TPN: But how does that explain that some sections of the Portuguese press have printed confidential information that later proved to be accurate?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Perhaps they had good sources of information, but we cannot conclude that they were given information by police in the Algarve.

TPN: The report leaked last week says that Gerry and Kate were made arguidos on the "merest possibility" that they were involved in the disappearance of their child. Is that accurate?

Gonçalo Amaral:

They were made arguidos on suspicion of two crimes: concealing a body and simulating an abduction and potentially the crime of abandonment. But saying they were made arguidos on the merest possibility that they were involved in the disappearance of their child is not true. The conclusions reached by the team investigating the crime, including colleagues in Britain, are the same as the five points I mention at the end of my book. Perhaps the conclusions reached in this latest report were made to facilitate the archiving of the case and findings were put across in a mild manner. Once you gain access to the case files, you will find that it was not due to a mere possibility.

TPN: What do we know about Madeleine's disappearance?

Gonçalo Amaral:

She was here on holiday. There is obviously no doubt that Madeleine existed. There is also no doubt that she went missing. The scheme employed to visit the children does, to a large extent, not correspond with the truth, it was probably used to safeguard the view that the children were safe [in the apartments on their own as their parents dined at the Tapas restaurant].

TPN: How often were the children checked upon?

Gonçalo Amaral:

One of the first lines of the investigation was to interview the party that was on holiday with the McCanns to establish this.

TPN: What did you find at the apartment?

Gonçalo Amaral:

No signs of forced entry. There were no signs of glove marks on the window. We compiled a report of the evidence we collected, but we are not here to accuse anyone.

TPN: Do you think more could have been done before archiving or closing the case?

Gonçalo Amaral:

In my opinion, a number of things are still lacking: We should have continued investigating the parents in order to either charge them or rule them out as suspects. If I represented this couple, I would have insisted that police investigations continue. Not everything we do is to incriminate a suspect. Often a phone will be tapped in order to obtain information that will clear a suspect.

We worked long hours discussing a number of potential explanations for Madeleine's disappearance; we did not insist solely that she had been abducted.

TPN: You say that politics prevented you from doing certain things during the investigation. What were those actions you would like to have taken?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I found the intervention of the [then] British Ambassador strange, as besides the British Consul in Portimão already being involved in the case from the first morning of Madeleine's disappearance, all diplomatic channels had been opened and were functional. With the arrival of the Ambassador, my colleagues and I thought it was odd, and to a certain extent made us feel limited in our investigations.

TPN: Did you ever receive orders to investigate in a certain manner?

Gonçalo Amaral:

No we did not receive any orders. I don't like talking about orders. But we felt limited.

TPN: Did the police offer a plea bargain to Kate McCann?

Gonçalo Amaral:

No.

TPN: But did you not suggest she consider a plea bargain?

Gonçalo Amaral:

We only explained the nature of certain crimes. Her lawyer was there, you can ask him.

TPN: Did Kate and Gerry McCann answer all the questions that you posed to them as fully as possible?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Up until being declared an arguido, Kate, at the request of her lawyer, co-operated. When questions became of a nature that could incriminate her, she was made an arguido, her rights and duties were read out to her in English and thereafter she opted for the right to remain silent.

TPN: And Gerry McCann?

Gonçalo Amaral:

He answered all questions, before and after being made an arguido.

TPN: When did the police first learn of the intention of the McCanns to leave Portugal?

Gonçalo Amaral:

With the arrival of the sniffer dogs, I think back in August, the couple started showing a keenness to leave the country. As for these dogs, I have not seen or heard any skepticism in Britain, contrary to Portugal.

TPN: How can you explain the theory that Kate and Gerry used their hire car in the disappearance of their daughter when it was hired 25 days after she vanished?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I don't know. I was not the one who hired the car.

A bodily fluid was detected in the trunk of the car which was similar to that of Madeleine McCann in 15 of the 19 indicators of her profile.

TPN: Has this evidence been investigated further?

Gonçalo Amaral:

No.

TPN: Why not?

Gonçalo Amaral:

You will have to ask my former colleagues that question.

TPN: What evidence was there that someone had been watching apartment 5A prior to Madeleine's disappearance?

Gonçalo Amaral:

We spoke to a number of people who came forward.

TPN: Anyone suspicious mentioned in these statements?

Gonçalo Amaral:

No. Perhaps just a British musician we later tracked down.

But in a reconstruction, witness testimonies, such as that of Jane Tanner and others, including restaurant workers, could be clarified further.

TPN: At what stage did you become suspicious of the McCanns and why?

Gonçalo Amaral:

There were a number of inconsistencies detected during the first interrogations.

TPN: Such as?

Gonçalo Amaral:

We were initially told by the parents that when they checked on the children they would use the front door. But Kate later said they used the other door. Because had they used the front door, they would have detected someone had forced their way into the room [where Madeleine and the twins had been sleeping].

But during these initial rounds of questioning, my team and I believed these inconsistencies were due to the McCanns and their friends trying to cover the fact they had left their children unattended, along with their possible lack of trust in the Portuguese police. This had a lot of weight for me in the beginning, especially as the law in Britain is far tougher concerning the abandoning of children.

TPN: Did you look into sex offenders, and what was the outcome?

Gonçalo Amaral:

It is very difficult that a paedophile pre-selected Madeleine. It had to be very well planned. But all known sexual predators were investigated.

TPN: Did you have any evidence that Robert Murat and the McCanns or their friends knew each other previous to Madeleine's disappearance?

Gonçalo Amaral:

We tried to confirm this, but along with the assistance of the British police, we were unable to establish any connection. But we looked into all possibilities. Robert Murat purchased a last-minute ticket to come to Portugal a couple of days before Madeleine went missing, perhaps as it was cheaper to do so. But we had to investigate whether or not his visit coincided with Madeleine's disappearance a couple of days later and whether he had been contacted to come here.

TPN: How do you see the lawsuit that you might face over your book?

Gonçalo Amaral:

My book is based on facts. It could be a good occasion to take all the case files to court and compare what I wrote with that which is contained in the files.

TPN: What next lies ahead for you?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I have had a number of proposals, but in October I am intending on starting my practical training as a lawyer, as I already have a law degree, but never practised.

Continue Reading... Labels: A Verdade da Mentira, Forensic Science Services, Goncalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral, The Truth of the Lie

Gonçalo Amaral and Hernâni Carvalho on TVI

See The McCann Files archive:  Gonçalo Amaral - The Interviews (July '08)

Gonçalo Amaral and Hernâni Carvalho on TVI
30 July 2008
Thanks to Joana Morais for review

Mr. Gonçalo Amaral was asked several questions regarding the book 'Maddie: The Truth of the Lie'. Some contradictions in the case were explained, also possible reasons for the simulation of kidnapping and hiding of the body were advanced. Several aspects were covered relative to the dogs and their findings and were shown on the diagram produced by Correio da Manhã, which also appears in the book.

Diagram and Dogs

Regarding the diagram, produced by Correio da Manhã, there are a few mistakes: for example,

• the sofa should be placed under the left window, there, exactly at the middle of the window, human blood and cadaver scent was found. 
• The window in the twins and Maddie's bedroom, which is annotated in the diagram with a dog is wrong - the cadaver scent was found on the opposite side of the apartment, outside, in the small garden or backyard . 
• Through investigation it was established that no one had died in the apartment prior to that day, so the scent and blood, which indicated a partial match to the genetic profile of Madeleine, provides the conviction that she was the one that died there. 
• The closet in the McCanns bedroom was big enough to hide a corpse inside.

Jane Tanner's Inconsistencies and Kate's Finger Prints

When Jane gave her statement, she explained that she saw a man carrying a child, but she and some of the tapas witnesses failed to see the window of Maddie's bedroom open, which was the alleged window used by the alleged kidnapper to take Maddie.

• The first problem is that Jane Tanner was never seen at that hour, and minutes, and place by either Gerry McCann, who has said that he was coming out of the apartment, or Jeremy Wilkins. They have both stated that they never saw her.
• Second inconsistency is that the window was cleaned on the previous day by the Ocean Club employees, and the only finger prints (thumb and middle finger) that were found were the ones of Kate and it was evident through the position of the prints that the window was opened from the inside, to the left. 
• Kate McCann stated that she never touched the window.

Gordon Brown and the existence of Political Pressures

The British Prime Minister, Gordon Brown called the police counterpart of Mr.Gonçalo Amaral, in Leicester, to warn him that Gonçalo Amaral had been removed. Gonçalo Amaral was only given notice of his 'removal' from the case two hours after this call was made.

Madeleine's Right Arm and the Strange Mark

The issue was raised by Mr. Hernâni Carvalho. Madeleine's right arm has a strange mark, a mark which, according to what Mr. Carvalho has learned with Doctor Natália Vara, a forensic psychologist is not a sun burn - in that case more parts of her body would show signs of sun burnings and it has the signs of a hard slap or similar.

• The point here, is that interviews were conducted with the baby sitters at the Ocean Club crèche and none of them remembers this very visible mark on Madeleine's arm. 
• There wasn't any statement from the parents regarding this fact. 
• Therefore, the conclusion is that this was made after 17:30, after the parents picked Maddie up from the crèche on the 3rd of May 2007.

On the Side

A question regarding the tapas friends and how many people were seated at the table dining when the girl disappeared was put to Gonçalo Amaral. He stated: 'It is not known'.

The dispatch of the archival of the process has 140 pages. Since there are no longer jurisdictional problems the neglect case can be tried in the UK.

Continue Reading... Labels: A Verdade da Mentira, Forensic Science Services, Goncalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral, The Truth of the Lie

The little girl died in that apartment

See The McCann Files archive:  Gonçalo Amaral - The Interviews (July '08)

"The little girl died in that apartment"
28 July 2008
As Tardes da Júlia
Gonçalo Amaral Interview
TVI
Thanks to 'astro' for transcription and translation

This is the transcript of an interview with Gonçalo Amaral, Paulo Reis and Duarte Levy, by Júlia Pinheiro, on 'As Tardes da Júlia', TVI, broadcast live on the 28th of July 2008.

Júlia Pinheiro:

The Attorney General's Office has archived the process, but everything indicates that a new stage of the Maddie case is about to begin. Gonçalo Amaral, the PJ's former coordinator has launched this book (Maddie : The Truth about the Lie) which is already here and also in my hand, where he numbers some surprising facts. He is going to be my guest today, he has not arrived yet but he will soon be here, and as these things work best with more than one accomplice, I have two journalists present to talk with me and to interrogate and talk a bit with Gonçalo Amaral. These are also two well known faces, who have been following the Maddie case in a committed and involved manner, please welcome Duarte Levy and Paulo Reis.

(applause)

Júlia Pinheiro:

Hello good afternoon! Now tell me, you have obviously read the book already.

Paulo Reis:

Yes.

Duarte Levy:

Yes.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Right away, right away.

Paulo Reis:

On the day before.

Duarte Levy:

Right on the day before.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Right on the day before. So while we wait for Gonçalo Amaral, and we're talking in his back, afterwards we will talk in front of him, what did you think? Duarte?

Duarte Levy:

There are still things that remain unsaid. I think that this book already opens a path, it already shows, clarifies a lot of things, many doubts that existed concerning the case, but I think that former inspector Gonçalo Amaral probably has a lot more to say.

Júlia Pinheiro:

So there is a certain feeling that there could be more. Is that it?

Duarte Levy:

There could be more. I think that sooner or later he will do it. The book should maybe be read twice, because there is a lot between the lines but it's a book that I strongly advise people to read.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Paulo?

Paulo Reis:

Just one detail. We read the book on the day before like so many other journalists, because the editor offered copies to the journalists that requested them on the eve of the publication. I make a very simple initial analysis that is the following. I presume that what is in the book is what is in the process. Dr Gonçalo Amaral would not make things up and include things that are not in the process. And after reading the book, I remembered the PJ's final report which led to the archiving. I went to re-read and compare both.

Júlia Pinheiro:

And what about that comparison?

Paulo Reis:

The perception that I have is that there are two perspectives, the perspective with which the PJ looks at the process' contents, in the light of what is contained in Gonçalo Amaral's book, it gives me the idea that the PJ's report focuses on what was not discovered. While the book contains what was discovered and what was not discovered. This would be almost like looking at a glass of water that is filled up to half, and saying it is half full or half empty. But I think that the PJ's report says that the glass is half empty, and Dr Gonçalo Amaral's book says that the glass is two thirds full.

Júlia Pinheiro:

And we are desperate to read the whole liquid, to drink the whole liquid, aren't we? Gonçalo Amaral could not endure us speaking about him in his back and he is already here. A round of applause for Gonçalo Amaral. Please come in?

(applause)

Júlia Pinheiro:

Good afternoon! How are you?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Good afternoon.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Please be seated.

Gonçalo Amaral:

Here?

Júlia Pinheiro:

Yes, here. I finally get to meet the man who everyone is talking about and I can't resist the first question: Are you apprehensive about the McCann couple's threats?

Gonçalo Amaral:

No. The book is based on facts and like someone told me it was written honestly, therefore it does not contain falsehoods and I'm not apprehensive.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Why do you think that they went as far as making sure that it reached Portugal, especially that sentence: "He should be very careful" the McCann couple said two days before the book was published?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I didn't hear the McCann couple say that. I heard a person who says he is a spokesman. Therefore it is not a status within the process, I think he is even a witness in the process at the moment, so that gentleman should know what he is saying.

Júlia Pinheiro:

You don't give it anything more, another value?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I have already thought about what I should do regarding that gentleman, but I'm keeping it to myself, therefore?

Júlia Pinheiro:

With Clarence Mitchell?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Exactly.

Júlia Pinheiro:

It is curious that he is one of the persons that are not mentioned in the book.

Gonçalo Amaral:

Yes because the book is about a criminal investigation of which that gentleman is not part. There may be an area, which is the journalistic area to understand the political pressure, but maybe a journalist could write about that area, even concerning the role of the media, the book doesn't focus much on that.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Yes but it also covers it.

Gonçalo Amaral:

It mentions facts, a set of facts, diligences, testimonies and scientific and documental evidence that is featured in the process. Therefore that gentleman is not part of the investigation despite all the noise that he has produced in the investigation.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Indeed and you report his entry into the process. There are so many questions that have not been clarified to this day

Gonçalo Amaral:

The investigation does not have to worry about that gentleman, does it?

Júlia Pinheiro:

Duarte Levy and Paulo, who will ask questions just like me, were saying that they were left with the feeling, may I call you Gonçalo?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Yes.

Júlia Pinheiro:

That's settled, then. They were left with the feeling that you leave a lot out of the book. And that the book does not contain everything.

Gonçalo Amaral:

Something has to be left out.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Why?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I'm a trained lawyer, I'm a lawyer, and we don't say everything, do we. It may be for a second edition of the book, it may be for certain explanations that someone wishes, therefore it's my own secret.

Júlia Pinheiro:

It's your own secret. So there is a secret? You haven't told everything?

Gonçalo Amaral:

No, but it's details, anyway.

Júlia Pinheiro:

But I get the feeling, precisely in this book, you two can join the conversation if you wish (to Duarte Levy and Paulo Reis), that in this book the details are very important, in fact, it's in the details that for people like us who follow things attentively, that this book becomes surprising. I'm going to let Paulo launch?

Paulo Reis:

A very precise, very direct question for Dr Gonçalo Amaral. Do you think that the PJ's final report, which was widely reported by the media and was even published online by Expresso newspaper. Do you think that the report faithfully reflects, does it make an accurate balance of the investigation?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Well before anything else, I want to thank you for the work that you have done since that time, the manner how you have followed the investigation and the way that you have been solidary with truth and justice.

Paulo Reis:

That is my obligation as a journalist.

Gonçalo Amaral:

You may not have done more than your obligation but I want to thank you and to thank all the journalists. Concerning that report, I have to be sincere, I haven't read it yet. I haven't had time to read it but if it is a report that led to the archiving, it cannot be faithful towards what exists in the process, so it's an imposition, I would not like to comment much further on that, but it's the position of police professionals who took it, that decision to write that report that was being very well written?

Júlia Pinheiro:

Weren't you curious to read that report? That final report from the PJ?

Gonçalo Amaral:

No, no. I haven't had time, either. I haven't had any time at all to read it. This has been a bumpy ride?

Júlia Pinheiro:

I find that absolutely impossible, I don't believe it. Have you cut all bonds with what you left behind? Have you distanced yourself emotionally from all of this?

Gonçalo Amaral:

No. I haven't cut all bonds. No.

Júlia Pinheiro:

I don't believe it!

Gonçalo Amaral:

But sincerely I haven't read the report yet. I haven't read the report, I know it's on the internet, so I will read it but I haven't read it yet.

Júlia Pinheiro:

I'm not convinced at all but say it.

Gonçalo Amaral:

But I'm telling you the truth.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Yes, Duarte?

Duarte Levy:

There is a question. We heard, a short while ago, about the existence of an investigation into your private life, yours, inspector Tavares de Almeida's private life and even Guilhermino de Encarnação's private life. Carried out by private detectives that are connected to the McCann family. And in the book, at some point you mention your dog. What happened to that dog? This is a question.

Gonçalo Amaral:

A mere coincidence, at the beginning of the investigation, the dog died. Surely nobody went there and killed him, it could have been other dogs, right.

Duarte Levy:

But during this investigation, did you never feel that maybe there was a pressure on you, on your colleagues?

Gonçalo Amaral:

The pressure was the persecution that we were subject to, but it was not much of a persecution anyway, because they didn't find out where I lived, they didn't find out outside of Portimão and not inside either, which was 100 metres from the police building that we all lived, they just followed me during those 100 metres from the police building and from the restaurant where I had lunch, so that big investigation that was done, by those journalists from English tabloids, they only managed to check 100 metres, because in fact nothing more apart from that. Concerning those gentlemen's investigation, it's the first time that I hear about that, I'm not worried. I only hope that if it is true, I hope that the entities that have responsibilities in criminal terms in this country act, because in fact it has been too much time. There is a very serious interference that started after I left Portimão, to try to carry out investigations, not only in this case but also related to the Joana case. And I think that -

Júlia Pinheiro:

In order to discredit you, to ruin your credibility, is that it?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Me and the Polícia Judiciária. I mean, they tried to question both investigations, there are things that, people came up and told me that this is for the little girls, for Joana and for Madeleine. Therefore, and they want to obtain information and things, therefore. In Portugal, criminal investigation it's well defined in the law who can carry it out, those gentlemen cannot do it and what they do here in Portugal has to be sanctioned somehow.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Obviously. Before I let Paulo speak, I would like to ask a question which I don't know whether Gonçalo will answer, but as you are not an inspector anymore and are now out of the circuit and haven't even read?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I was never an inspector. I was a coordinator? it's a matter of?

Júlia Pinheiro:

Coordinator, I apologise, but as you are not with the PJ anymore, maybe you can, we have already talked more about states of the soul, about impressions. You started shaking your head as a no, but anyway. The first contact that you had with the McCann family, father and mother, what did you think?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Well, I don't speak English, therefore the contact was made through other persons, but I had no reaction.

Júlia Pinheiro:

But did you think that you were in the presence of a genuinely worried couple, desperate to find their daughter?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I didn't make that type of judgment. In a criminal investigation, we have to base ourselves in facts, we have to be objective and leave emotions behind. The parents' situation of anguish is logical, there was anguish, now whether it was anguish over the disappearance of their daughter or over knowing that their daughter was dead, it's different and it cannot be distinguished like that. But in fact there was anguish contrary to what is being said, not in the police building but it's known that the little girl's mother cried, she apparently cried that morning, so that anguish could be over the loss of her daughter, right? Therefore if they are committed to searching, it's not normal that on the first day, the first hour, the only possible lead was abduction, abduction and it's extended into saying abduction by Portuguese paedophile networks, therefore, these conclusions are made too soon after the event, because several possibilities were open at that moment, therefore, from then onwards I also find that strange and we took it into consideration.

Júlia Pinheiro:

And later on? When you continue the investigation, you cross ways with this couple several times, did your opinion change or do you think that?

Gonçalo Amaral:

The idea that I got and that my colleagues got, things have to be put in their place, don't they, I was the coordinator of an investigation team, which included English, Portuguese, joint national directors, vice directors, this was the operational part that was being directed from Portimão, where the investigation was based. The advance that happens, is relatively changed. There is a sort of flight forward, we can understand that, it happens and possibly not only in this case, but in other cases where people sort of, I don't want to say lie, half truth, they stick to the idea that there is an abduction and they don't think about anything except abduction and psychologists and psychiatrists have already mentioned that, so it's as if they believed it was true, there is this flight forward, therefore, from that moment onwards they continue to say that they search for their daughter.

Júlia Pinheiro:

But did they change their behaviour, or did they have a more cold, more reserved attitude, more contained or more emotional?

Gonçalo Amaral:

There are situations that are reported in the book but there are others when there isn't a normal behaviour, so the person despairs during a moment of anxiety and we actually try to understand, we try, if it's an obstruction that was the issue there, if it was really a demand for ransom, and we try to negotiate with that individual who was in Holland.

Júlia Pinheiro:

That episode is particularly surprising.

Gonçalo Amaral:

And then we watch that, us Portuguese who were there...

Júlia Pinheiro:

... and the English...

Gonçalo Amaral:

... and the English, we watched it in stupefaction, he was sitting there with a lollipop laughing on the phone and we were all waiting...

Júlia Pinheiro:

We're talking about Gerry McCann, at the moment when, because someone did try a coup like that, correct? So while you were waiting for him to make contact with you?

Gonçalo Amaral:

... maybe it was his way of reacting to that tension, maybe it's justifiable but to us, we were shocked, it's not. We were searching for his daughter, doing our job.

Júlia Pinheiro:

While he visited sites on the internet...

Gonçalo Amaral:

No, he was on the phone.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Ah he was on the phone and sucking on a lollipop wasn't it and laughing and chatting?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Yes! Completely detached from what was going on and about to happen?

Júlia Pinheiro:

So that shocked you in particular?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Me and the colleagues who were present.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Very well. Paulo wanted to ask a question. Let's hear it ?

Paulo Reis:

A very specific question that stands out in your book. There are 7 witnesses, 4 friends of the McCanns, 2 English tourists that were there at the Ocean Club, and one of the nannies from the crèche who guarantee that they saw Robert Murat near the apartment on the evening that Madeleine disappeared. Robert Murat denies this, he says that he was with his mother, and then the Judiciária questions several members of the GNR, of the staff from the Ocean Club, and people who live there and who participated in the searches and who know Robert Murat perfectly because he lives there and all of those people deny those witnesses and peremptorily state that they did not see Robert Murat that night. This is the question that I ask you. Isn't it obligatory even from a legal standpoint, faced with what to me seem like false statements, that certificates are extracted and that there are legal procedures against those witnesses because they are giving a false statement?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Provided that the Public Ministry proves that they are really false statements.

Paulo Reis:

I'm aware it's a decision for the Public Ministry, I only...

Gonçalo Amaral:

I think they are. As a layer, I think they are, I have that notion that they in fact don't give a truthful testimony.

Paulo Reis:

But there is no news that those persons were targeted by a process from the Public Ministry.

Gonçalo Amaral:

In fact there is another situation with Mathew Oldfield who says he went inside the apartment and states that he saw two windows, and his wife says that moments before that, minutes earlier, he had listened at the two bedroom windows, so that detail of the two windows, which seems to be a mistake but it's not quite so, therefore, if they had been in the bedroom they would know that there was only one window in the bedroom, even outside of the bedroom if they had been listening it would only be one window as well, therefore there is only one window.

Paulo Reis:

So it is not known that the Public Ministry acted on the matter of the false testimonies by those witnesses, which in fact, Robert Murat's lawyer has already announced that as soon as he has access to the process ?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Yes, because there even was a confrontation between them?

Paulo Reis:

Yes precisely, precisely.

Júlia Pinheiro:

So for now there are no consequences?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Well, it seems not.

Júlia Pinheiro:

It seems not. I insist on the questions concerning your impressions because it was maybe the aspect of the book that I was most avid to know whether or not you would take that route, and twice or thrice you let the text slide towards it, and I was really very surprised over that behaviour from Gerry McCann at the moment when the possibility of his daughter's ransom is being discussed, which was obviously fictitious, but his behaviour relating to it and some observations that you make concerning Kate McCann. Namely a certain irritation and ill humour under several circumstances. Can you define who is Kate McCann?

Gonçalo Amaral:

It is difficult to define, isn't it. She almost cried in front of us, and then she lowered her head and when she returned she came back more aggressive, more ...

Júlia Pinheiro:

But within the couple she is the more combative, the more controlling person.

Gonçalo Amaral:

I didn't want to take that route in terms of rendering things subjective but...

Júlia Pinheiro:

I noticed that.

Gonçalo Amaral:

...but that is how it was. It was a bit, there was something not right there, but maybe a psychiatrist or someone could analyse the behaviour.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Very well, you don't want to say much about your personal impressions of her ahaha

Gonçalo Amaral:

The issue here is not... I don't have to worry about the McCann couple. What I have to worry about, or had to worry about is that little girl and find out what happened to her. It's logical that knowing who the parents are and their behaviour, how they react, all of that is important within an investigation. But the most important thing is for us to integrate with what we have, to find the facts and to follow a route in terms of the final objective. Therefore, discussing the parents... it's a question...

Júlia Pinheiro:

But surely the second route that was chosen was the possibility that they are involved in her disappearance it had to do with that behaviour that we just referred... some coldness, some...

Gonçalo Amaral:

No...

Júlia Pinheiro:

It wasn't only about that?

Gonçalo Amaral:

It was about the entire investigation that is made isn't it, but...

Júlia Pinheiro:

And these elements aren't analysed?

Gonçalo Amaral:

We don't base ourselves on empathies and we don't like or dislike persons, we focus on the investigations.

Júlia Pinheiro:

I'm not talking about empathies; I'm talking about behavioural observation. That is also analysed.

Gonçalo Amaral:

It is, but ...

Júlia Pinheiro:

Ah!

Gonçalo Amaral:

But what leads us into the direction of the little girl's death is facts, not only looking at people and thinking that...

Júlia Pinheiro:

Do you really reach the theory of an accidental death according to your theory, before the dogs arrive in Portugal, or?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Yes, before the dogs come to Portugal, there are signs of death as I say in the book, signs which are given by the family that a cadaver is being searched. This gentleman comes from South Africa, and hair from the little girl, supposedly from the little girl, he places it inside a machine which he invented and we hear its contents which says that there within a certain area of the beach lies a cadaver. So he came on the couple's request, otherwise he would not be requested. Then, the dogs' intervention follows a work of analysis, of planning carried out by a British national consultant, from the British police, he was here in Portugal, he saw the area, he consulted the process with what happened, therefore with facts that existed, he went to the area, he rode a helicopter, consulted with academics, and all that and he reached the conclusion that we have to search for a cadaver. In order to search for a cadaver these experts have to be used, these dogs and that was what happened. So from there on...

Júlia Pinheiro:

So that was what is called a good relationship between British and Portuguese investigators.

Gonçalo Amaral:

Very good.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Very good. Contrary to everything that was later reported by the press.

Gonçalo Amaral:

Exactly.

Júlia Pinheiro:

So your opinion is that an accidental death took place in that apartment.

Gonçalo Amaral:

It is not my opinion. It's the opinion of the investigation. This has to be made very clear. I have repeated this several times but it's important.

Júlia Pinheiro:

You are absolutely right, so according to the investigation?

Gonçalo Amaral:

According to the investigation that was composed of English, Portuguese investigators...

Júlia Pinheiro:

Exactly. The little girl died in that apartment?

Gonçalo Amaral:

The little girl died in that apartment.

Júlia Pinheiro:

On the evening of the 3rd of May.

Gonçalo Amaral:

And we reached that conclusion with the data that we have.

Júlia Pinheiro:

And before the time that was announced? Before 10 pm which is the time that was?

Gonçalo Amaral:

The time is not known because the reconstruction was not carried out, which could be important in order to define the times and to verify if they could have attended all that vigilance from the parents, every 10 or every 5 minutes, so if they were having dinner and all of a sudden almost nobody dined, isn't it. But it seems that only one plate went back, a steak that had to be warmed up. It was necessary to understand who it was that failed to eat that steak and what everyone else ate, how long the dinner lasted, how long the meals take to be prepared, and all of those things in order to understand it all afterwards.

The reconstruction was not carried out and from there on it's difficult to know at what time it could have happened. There is one piece of data in terms of accurate time that evening, it exists and it concerns the little girl, it's the time at which she left the nursery.

Júlia Pinheiro:

At 5.30 pm.

Gonçalo Amaral:

At 5.30 pm, concerning the other witnesses that were at the beach there is the video registry, they were filmed by the camera that was there, at 6.36 pm they leave the beach, first the men and afterwards the women and children, in terms of times and then there is the time of the Irish witness who knows at what time his dinner ends, and he has the receipt of the payment with the time at which he paid, when he leaves the restaurant across the street ?

Júlia Pinheiro:

Across the street he sees a man walking down with a child?

Gonçalo Amaral:

He sees a man walking down with a child.

Júlia Pinheiro:

? who he only realises to be Gerry McCann when he sees Gerry McCann descending with his children?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Exactly.

Júlia Pinheiro:

...when they return to England.

Gonçalo Amaral:

The files that mention the testimony, they mention the clumsy manner in which he carried the child, the posture which we could call athletic, that he was an athletic individual and they offer a description, they reach the point of saying that, it was maybe possible in terms of saying who it is physically, but with those characteristics, the manner in which he walked, how he carried the child, they could know who it was. And so when he sees, when that family sees Gerry McCann descending from the airplane carrying the child and he starts to walk on the pavement, they realised. Now he says it's 80%, if you tell me ah that is not evidence, I also agree it's not evidence but at least it's a piece of information and that information should always be worked out.

Júlia Pinheiro:

And was it?

Gonçalo Amaral:

When I left Portimão, on the 1st of October, I left on the 2nd but on the 1st we were arranging for those witnesses to come to Portugal. We already had permission from the national director, all that was left to do was to choose a hotel for them to stay and to schedule a date. After I left I know it took several months until the witness was heard, which happened around January or February this year, I don't know, through a rogatory letter or a request for assistance under international cooperation.

Júlia Pinheiro:

That is really one of the surprising bits of data. Another piece of data which is also surprising is related to that towel that Kate McCann gives for the first dogs, our dogs, the Portuguese. Why did she give a towel and not a piece of clothing? After this I'll let Paulo speak.

Gonçalo Amaral:

That is another question that has to be understood as well, doesn't it? The towel because supposedly she had had a bath that day, right? It would therefore carry more of the little girl's smell, the little girl's odour, so this was an option between her, I think, and the members of GNR.

Júlia Pinheiro:

The GNR which was there. Let's hear Paulo.

Paulo Reis:

Now before I move on to another question, concerning the towel has the PJ established for example how often the bed sheets and the towels in the apartments are changed. Because if memory doesn't fail me, the towel is delivered to the GNR 48 hours after the little girl disappeared.

Gonçalo Amaral:

No. The towel was handed over right on that night.

Paulo Reis:

On that night.

Gonçalo Amaral:

The GNR dogs also arrived that night. But the last time that the apartment had been cleaned was on Wednesday.

Paulo Reis:

A while ago, you mentioned an English policeman, a great expert, I suppose you were referring to Mark Harrison who is one of the two or three best British policemen in terms of investigating complex crimes. He was here, he spent a week in Praia da Luz, he rummaged through Praia da Luz, he walked everywhere, the saw the process upside down, he read the entire process, and then he wrote a report in which he concludes that the most likely hypothesis is the child's death, and if I'm correct, he proposes the dogs' coming, right?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Exactly.

Paulo Reis:

Was he the policeman who also retired, a reference that you made during a press conference? That there was an English policeman who retired.

Gonçalo Amaral:

No.

Paulo Reis:

Was there an English policeman who also retired?

Gonçalo Amaral:

The English policeman who retired is from the Leicester police. Now the reasons I would prefer not to talk about him at the moment. As a matter of fact I'd like to talk to him personally and I don't want him to be pressured so I would reserve myself the right not to comment any further.

Paulo Reis:

Just to make this very clear, is that English policeman, Mark Harrison?

Gonçalo Amaral:

No, no, no.

Paulo Reis:

...who comes here, writes a report, no, I'm not talking about the retirement issue, I'm just saying that he came here, that he is an expert in complex crime, one of the most prestigious from the English police, he walks the streets of Praia da Luz from one end to another, he measures, routes, timings, he analyses the process and after that he writes a report in his quality as one of the finest English experts, where he writes black on white that the most likely possibility is that the child died in the apartment, is that correct?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Correct.

Paulo Reis:

That is what marks the turn in the investigations.

Gonçalo Amaral:

Correct.

Paulo Reis:

And then the famous dogs arrive?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Yes, to detect cadaver and human blood odour.

Júlia Pinheiro:

So you don't want to tell why your colleague retired. He has his own reasons. But you are aware that all of this thickens the public's perception of a Machiavellian conspiracy theory. I understand your position, maybe at the moment you don't want to say more or you can't, it's a fact that your book has brought us something more but we still fail to understand everything. Mainly, possibly the macro-structure that surrounds all of this. Duarte?

Duarte Levy:

No, I just wanted to talk about the issue of the English lab's reports.

Júlia Pinheiro:

That is very important, yes.

Gonçalo Amaral:

The reports from the English labs... the English reports arrive shortly before the questionings that were scheduled. And it contained certain conclusions, if they thought they were inconclusive they shouldn't have mentioned it, the question of the 15 alleles in a profile of 19 from the little girl, stating that they match Madeleine McCann, but they also say that it could have been a construction let's say from various donors, from other persons, a contamination could have produced Madeleine McCann's profile by coincidence. But there are no excuses for saying that it is not from Madeleine McCann because they held the profiles of the father, the mother, the siblings, therefore there are no doubts that at least within that family they only matched Madeleine McCann's.

Duarte Levy:

In Portugal, for example, we only need a match of 15 alleles out of 19 in order to determine someone's paternity, therefore? That is the first fact. The second fact is that at this moment, the institute for Forensic Medicine is already prepared, they already own the same equipment as the FSS in England to carry out this type of analysis. Why does the Public Ministry or the Polícia Judiciária not request, or don't they have any more samples to carry out?

Gonçalo Amaral:

As far as we know, they have all been destroyed by now, namely the hair. Nothing can be done.

Paulo Reis:

Concerning the FSS reports ?

Gonçalo Amaral:

And the samples were microscopic, weren't they?

Paulo Reis:

Are you absolutely certain that the reports that reached you, namely those concerning the blood residues in the car boot, are exactly the reports that left the FSS?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I have no doubts whatsoever, in fact, they were delivered by a senior official from Leicester police, it carries a logo, they came and went by email, so there is an existing origin, therefore the report is signed, so I have no doubts about that.

Júlia Pinheiro:

You have no doubts whatsoever about that.

Gonçalo Amaral:

On the official document.

Júlia Pinheiro:

But wasn't it published in Belgium that?

Duarte Levy:

? that there are two reports. There is one report that left the FSS and there is a second slightly different report that arrived in Portugal.

Gonçalo Amaral:

There is a recent report and there are two other reports. The first one mentions 15 alleles and here is the main question, it places the focus, they place the focus on that part of the exam from the vehicle, in the second [report] they then focus on the apartment, if on one side 15 alleles were not enough, in the other there were only 5 alleles that matched Madeleine McCann's genetic profile, what could be read there was that there were almost no problems. Because it's easily justifiable. It may not be justifiable with the cadaver odour on the spot where the blood sample was collected, but therefore, inside the house it is easy to justify, it's more difficult with a car that was rented more than twenty days later. So this is where the major confusion lies.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Yes, Paulo?

Paulo Reis:

At a given moment in time, around the 9th or 10th of May, starts what you mention in your book, a wave of sightings of Madeleine. Madeleine is first seen in Morocco, by a?

Gonçalo Amaral:

First she is seen here in Portugal. The wave starts to spread in Portugal.

Paulo Reis:

Exactly. Portugal and then ?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Then she is seen in the North, then jumps to South America, Brazil?

Paulo Reis:

One that was largely publicised by the English newspapers, was from a Norwegian lady who was spending holidays in Morocco and who swears that she saw the little girl. What the English press does not mention at that time is that the lady is Norwegian but she is married to a man who was born and bred in Rothley, the town where the?

Júlia Pinheiro:

It could be a tremendous coincidence.

Paulo Reis:

? the McCanns resided for the last few years. This is the question that I ask you: The wave of sightings, namely in Morocco, where witnesses state that they are 100% certain that it was the child, I have no doubts. Beyond the usual confirmation with Interpol, Interpol and the police forces in those countries were requested to investigate those sightings and those witnesses.

Gonçalo Amaral:

The witnesses, it was necessary to hear those witnesses and she lives in Southern Spain. She lives near Valencia. That is one of the diligences that possibly remained to carry out. But concerning those sightings in Morocco, it was through the cooperation with the English police, with liaison officers with the Moroccan police that tried to obtain the video tapes from that petrol station where the little girl was seen, in order to try to find out if it could actually be her or not. It was all handled from there.

Júlia Pinheiro:

And you don't value the fact that really the lady who saw is married to someone who coincidentally is?

Gonçalo Amaral:

That was actually taken into account and it happened later, as Paulo Reis said, and as a matter of fact it's something that should have been worked upon in terms of being heard.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Well, let's talk about what worries?

Gonçalo Amaral:

But I can also say that apart from those sightings all over the world, in Praia da Luz there were little girls that strongly resembled Madeleine, blond with blue eyes, many of the same age as her. Therefore, someone could have spotted Madeleine there, in Praia da Luz, something that was not done.

Júlia Pinheiro:

That's true, that's true. In your opinion, Maddie, in the opinion of the investigation and of your colleagues and the team that you coordinated, did Maddie die that evening?

Gonçalo Amaral:

She died.

Júlia Pinheiro:

And someone took her from that apartment and placed her where?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Look, when we are in an investigation of this kind we have to understand what the knowledge of those persons is, if they know other people, what contacts they have. If they have means at their disposal. We have to know the area itself, to know about the facility or the almost material impossibility to conceal the corpse within few hours and few minutes. And the conclusion that we reach with all of this, with all of this data is that, if there was any involvement from those nine persons, the corpse could only be in the beach area. And that is in fact where the gentleman?

Júlia Pinheiro:

The investigator.

Gonçalo Amaral:

Not the investigator, the Irish witnesses...

Júlia Pinheiro:

Ah yes!

Gonçalo Amaral:

...see a person passing, a man carrying a child, a little girl, they say that it is in effect Madeleine going towards the South area, let's put it that way, towards the sea side. Now whether or not she stayed there, that is another question. For how long she stayed there, what happens next, only the development of the investigation of that area of death, let's put it that way, could take us there.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Would you have followed that investigation line?

Gonçalo Amaral:

It was the direction that I was following at that time so until we emptied it we weren't stopping, were we?

Júlia Pinheiro:

It sounds so unbelievable, the possibility that a body was placed on a cliff, or in any other area on the beach, and then removed and transported in a rental car.

Gonçalo Amaral:

The corpse couldn't have remained there all the time. It's impossible.

Júlia Pinheiro:

So where was it taken next?

Gonçalo Amaral:

If we take into account that, if we consider the traces that were found in the car boot?

Júlia Pinheiro:

? which are in fact?

Gonçalo Amaral:

? which are in fact from the little girl. In order to justify that bodily fluid as the lab says, it could only have been preserved and conserved in the cold because otherwise it would have been?

Júlia Pinheiro:

That means that?

Gonçalo Amaral:

? in an advanced state of decomposition, at least it's a hypothesis. Therefore it's a question of a deep freezer, or something similar, and there we had to search for it and that was what we were doing. This means, the contacts that they had, where they went, where they were seen? There are people who say that they were seen entering an apartment block near the cemetery in Praia da Luz. At that point in time we weren't able to detect which apartment they entered, who lived there, because it's also a bit complicated because you have to understand it's a tourist area and often it's not known who the apartment belongs to.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Of course, of course?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Who lives there, for how long they live there, so all of that was being worked upon. To try to understand the support?

Júlia Pinheiro:

If someone discovered a deep freezer in the area and?

Gonçalo Amaral:

If it was actually a deep freezer, it doesn't exist anymore now.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Is that still possible to find out? I imagine?

Gonçalo Amaral:

Look, a few years ago on the Azores, after a homicide that had taken place years earlier, we managed to locate a vehicle that was already in a junk yard in which a taxi driver had been killed, a taxi driver from Praia da Vitória in the Azores. But we were unlucky, normally the van's back had a carpet but it didn't exist anymore. That carpet didn't exist anymore, so if we had found that carpet it would have been possible to prove that the death had taken place there, so anything is possible.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Anything is possible. I don't know if Paulo and Duarte have any further questions, you have to be brief, we're almost finishing.

Duarte Levy:

One more doubt, I read in your book that you never received the medical report, Madeleine's clinical history. For example, I also know that ?

Gonçalo Amaral:

We think, because that's the way it is, we spoke to the English police, they said right away that there were problems in England to hand that over within the rogatory letter's context. There is a rogatory letter that was carried out but before that there was another rogatory letter that was being prepared which also contained those questions and which also contained questions about other tests, other tests by the dogs with the friends that were there, namely on the clothes with those same dogs in order to try to find cadaver odour or any other trace, that was important. So there was that rogatory letter?

Duarte Levy:

And you never received those reports, you receive the reply that the McCanns had no credit cards, you already knew that was false, could it then be said that there were two English teams working on this case? The one that in fact stood beside the PJ and the one that worked against?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I don't speak with the English police, I can assure you

Júlia Pinheiro:

And now we don't speak at all because we're arriving at the end. I only want, Gonçalo Amaral, I only want to know one thing. Will Maddie return to your life one of these days, or not?

Gonçalo Amaral:

I think yes. This book has the will of clarifying and of contributing to the investigation, I think yes, there are more things to talk about.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Is that your mission?

Gonçalo Amaral:

It's not a mission, it's a question of recovering my dignity and my honour and that of my colleagues and of this institution to which I was so proud of belonging to for so many years, and of justice being done for the little girl.

Júlia Pinheiro:

Thank you. A round of applause for Gonçalo Amaral. Duarte Levy and Paulo Reis, thank you very much.

(applause)

Continue Reading... Labels: A Verdade da Mentira, Forensic Science Services, Goncalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral, Leicestershire Police, Policia Judiciaria, Smith sighting, The Truth of the Lie

Gonçalo Amaral admits that investigators protected the McCanns

See The McCann Files archive:  Gonçalo Amaral - The Interviews (July '08)

Gonçalo Amaral admits that investigators protected the McCanns
27 July 2008
Jornal de Notícias
Marisa Rodrigues
Thanks to Joana Morais for translation

For the first time since he began to talk publicly about the case of the disappearance of Madeleine McCann, Gonçalo Amaral, the co-coordinator of the investigation, analyses his own responsibilities in the outcome of the case and in the conduct of all the work of the Judiciary Police.

Of the pressures and constraints that they were anticipating, more than feeling, of the virtually unlimited autonomy in the carrying out of the diligences and even in the mistakes that he himself now assumes to have committed, particularly the group of investigators initial decision to show precaution with everything that concerned Kate and Gerry McCann. For fear of the reaction of public opinion. Today, he would not agree with decisions that he helped the group of investigators to take. In the book " Maddie, The Truth of The Lie " he does not say everything that he knows. A second book is not out of question.

Jornal de Notícias: Who has pressured the Judiciary Police (PJ) so that it could not advance with diligences?

Gonçalo Amaral

The pressures were immediately felt in the morning following the disappearance of the girl. The British consul in the Algarve went to the Judiciary Police to find out about the investigation, which is not abnormal. Shortly afterwards, it was the turn of the ambassador to go there. It is not a normal proceeding with all the English subjects. At least, I had never assisted a similar situation.

But were you prevented from advancing with the diligences that had been planned?

To me no one told me "do not do it". If that had happened the "broth would pour over" [Portuguese idiomatic expression meaning it would be over the top]. There my participation in that investigation would have ended. But we felt constrained.

In what way?

Notice. Soon after the visit of the ambassador, an announcement goes out referring the thesis of abduction.

Was it the ambassador who pressurised the PJ?

It was not that what I said. The pressure was felt in the team of investigators. When, in the heart of the group, if it was discussed the realisation of a determined diligence there was always someone who would say "Oh, oh, we have to be careful".

Who?

I am not going say names. If in the book I was careful to never give names, I am not going to do that now. It is one of those things that are kept. But in the group there were seven, eight, ten persons taking part, between co-ordinators, directors. When the question of the necessity of doing a determined diligence was raised, everything was discussed, namely, which was the importance, the objective that was wanted to accomplish and what were the consequences. And when there were issues that needed us to come even closer to the couple and the group of friends, one was careful for them not to be considered suspects so soon at that time, to prevent them from being accused in the public opinion, faced with the existing media pressure.

Are you saying that the PJ itself decided to protect them. Why so many precautions? It's natural to have suspects in a criminal investigation.

Because, at that time we would have been crucified by public opinion.

You were afraid of the media pressure?

No. We felt it was necessary to treat them with 'tweezers'. I recognise what we were mistaken.

If you believed in the accidental death thesis and in the parents involvement what was the reason for you not to insist that determined diligences were done?

At the time when the arguments against were suggested they were considered valid for the whole group. It was the group itself that said "let us not go there".

If you didn't agree why didn't you close the door? It was your image, while co-ordinator, that was in question.

Those were not times for rebellions. I always worked in group. If the arguments were valid, one had to respect them.

Even without agreeing with them?

At the time I agreed because I considered them to be valid. Perhaps now, at a distance, I do not agree.

What remained to be done?

Too much. The first version of the rogatory letter, which was changed after my expulsion on 2 October, had several steps that were simply struck out. It was requested that the British dogs be used to search the house of the McCanns in Leicester and also those of their friends and that they smelled their clothes. It also asked to verify the existence of a chart on the refrigerator of the girl's parents, which showed that she had problems with sleep and used to rise several times at night. The chart is referred to by an English police officer. New interviews with the arguidos were proposed but were never done. The charter was amended by the prosecutors.

With what goal?

Probably the steps were not considered important after my removal.

You said that with another prosecutor perhaps the outcome of the investigation would have been different. If there had been another National Director, not Alípio Ribeiro, recently criticised by Almeida Rodrigues, would the investigation have been conducted differently?

I do not know, but probably not. The National Directorate is only one and has a very specific understanding and procedures, regardless of whom addressed.

Who chose the laboratory from Birmingham to examine the remains?

The PJ decided that the remains had to be analysed by an English laboratory. Given the campaign that already existed at the time against the PJ. At that time, we had to be fully aware that if the results tested positive, in Portugal, there would be a strong reaction against the competence and capacity of our laboratories. We did so to show confidence in British laboratories. The choice of Birmingham was made by the English police.

It was a strategy? Or was there fear that the samples had not been well received and that they had been contaminated?

It was strategy. We had confidence in the strength of the traces and the competence of our technicians. It was all collected with the utmost care. During the collection, the Portuguese had the technical care to contact the English technicians and follow the information given to them by phone. In particular the remains collected on the tile of the room, so that nothing collapsed on the question of evidence from the collection to the handling and packaging.

But the procedures are not universal? Or did you want to safeguard your position in case of failure?

They are universal. But we wanted to follow to the letter the procedures of the English police because the remains were to be sent to an English laboratory.

Were you not confident in the Portuguese technicians?

I had and still have absolute confidence. But we wanted someone who the British police would also agree with what they were doing to that later, no one could see that the remains were poorly collected.

It was a kind of defence before the attack?

That's more or less it.

The line is that you advocate accidental death in the apartment with the involvement of parents. But the book raises suspicions about David Payne. It seems a contradiction.

Nobody can say that the two have no relationship until they are investigated. I have suspicions about this gentleman or against anyone. Only I can see that there are situations that were unclear. There is a testimony from a couple of British doctors who say that in September 2005, when holidaying with the McCanns in Majorca and other couples, they became aware of behaviours that are not normal for them and that they related to this gentleman. The couple went to British police as soon as they saw them on television and the evidence only came to Portugal on 26 October. They say they saw Payne put a finger in his mouth, and move it in and out, whilst rubbing his nipple with the other hand. And speaking of what Madeleine would do, next to the father, Gerry. These testimonials from doctors, as credible as the McCanns, should have had another treatment by the police.

And what did the PJ do when they finally received this information?

Nothing. Not even included in the letter of any investigation related to this episode.

David Payne, in your opinion, may have something to do with the disappearance of Madeleine?

I do not know why it was not investigated properly as it should, in my opinion, have been. He was the last to see Madeleine alive after 17.30 hours, when she left the nursery. Gerry was playing tennis and asked him to look in on Kate and the kids. Gerry replies that he was in the apartment and she (Madeleine) was there. He returned 30 minutes later. Kate says it was 30 seconds. Something that does not fit together.

In the book you say that he was recognised by a social worker. What did you intend by reporting this episode?

Only that people realised that it is one more situation that was not investigated. The following morning to the disappearance, a social worker of English nationality in the Algarve offers to help, but she was almost ill-treated (offended) by the couple, apparently by indication of this man [David Payne]. This man is recognised by the social worker as already having passed in a process, in an investigation, without her being able at the time to tell if it was in the quality (status) of a witness or as in another processual figure [means a judicial status like arguido or suspect]. If he has or not some relation with the death, I do not know. But these are situations that could not have passed in clear (without being investigated), as they were. They should have been checked.

How did Robert Murat become a translator for the accused?

There were many difficulties in finding translators. We needed him because many had to listen to many people. It was the GNR who suggested the name of Robert Murat because he spoke fluent Portuguese and English. He was known by the military to have helped informally in some translations. He was now accused by a number of factors combined. There is a testimony of Jane Tanner that recognises him from the view of his back and assures that this is the man who she saw that night passing with a child.

But Jane Taner was a credible witness?

Never was. But there were other things. Phone calls from anonymous people who came to mention it as a possible abduction.

These anonymous phone calls took place before or after being recognised by Jane Tanner?

I do not know need, but it was certainly before he was made arguido. Either way, nothing has been found that links Robert Murat in this case.

Recently you said that there is much you know and have not written. Is there something that has been purposely left out?

It is logical that yes.

What and for what purpose?

I cannot disclose it.

It leaves room for a second book, for example?

Maybe. Let's see.

    

Continue Reading... Labels: A Verdade da Mentira, Alipio Ribeiro, Forensic Science Services, Gaspar statement, Goncalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral, Leicestershire Police, Policia Judiciaria, The Truth of the Lie

A copper without shame

I invite you to review this article after actually READING "The Truth of the Lie" and the PJ files. I would suggest that it is NOT Goncalo Amaral who should be feeling any sense of shame in regard to the investigation into the disappearance of Madeleine McCann. Others (including this reporter) should, Gonçalo Amaral should not.

A copper without shame;
As the McCanns are cleared, The detective sacked from the Maddie hunt launches his book. 
For the failure to solve the case, he blames her parents, MI5, the British police, the NHS and even Gordon Brown. 
In short, everyone but himself
26 July 2008
Daily Mail
Richard Pendlebury

EL CORTE INGLES is Lisbon's grandest department store. The name loosely translates as 'The English Style', though 'corte' can also mean a cut, as from a knife. Perhaps the ambiguity amused super sleuth Goncalo Amaral, for this was the location he chose on Thursday evening to launch the 'confidencial' inside story of his most sensational case: the mystery of Madeleine McCann.

The portly detective sat before a table piled high with his newly published paperback memoir of the investigation, ready to be signed and sold at £10 apiece. Hundreds of local people had queued to see him.

As the officer in charge of the hunt for Madeleine from the night she vanished until he was fired from the case last October, Amaral, 48, presided over the shredding of the reputation of the Portuguese CID.

With a perjury charge still hanging over him, connected to an alleged assault in a separate missing-child case, he has just taken early retirement to publish his book.

'I want to clear my name,' he says in the blurb. To this end, 40,000 copies of Maddie: A Verdade Da Mentira (The Truth Of The Lie) are to be printed in Portuguese alone. An English translation is being arranged, and lucrative international rights are being neglotiated (SIC).

This week the unsolved case was finally shelved, and Kate and Gerry McCann were cleared of their arguido -- official suspect -- status.

Yet in Amaral's book, the couple face a fresh attack from the former police chief who long ago decided their guilt. (Blogger note: See wikileaks cables re: British police / McCanns)

The couple's lawyers are on a war footing and they intend to sue. Having read the book with the help of a translator, it is not hard to see why.

It takes character to admit gross failure. Amaral has not done this in print. Instead, he petulantly dresses it up as a conspiracy against him while, without any hard evidence, (Blogger note: See video / British cadaver dogs) placing blame on those who were hurt most.

We cannot go into the allegations he makes against the McCanns, as they have indicated they will take legal action if the charges are repeated. In any case, most of them are already known.

But what can be examined in detail is the long list of institutions which the embittered former head of the Portimao CID blames for his inability to crack the case.

Most of these are British. He says he was a victim of international politics. He claims the British media sided against him, and that their portrayal of Portugal as a 'Third World country' hampered the investigation.

He says the British police, the Diplomatic Service, the MI5 and even the NHS were blocking his path to the 'material truth'.

He even hints that Prime Minister Gordon Brown delayed signing last year's Lisbon Treaty until it was confirmed that 'this humble Portuguese employee' was removed from the McCann investigation.

But it is not just Britain he blames. The Portuguese government and even the Policia Judiciria, to which he had belonged for 26 years, 'betrayed' him.

During the investigation, his beloved wife left him. His dog was killed under suspicious circumstances, perhaps because of the case.

His martyrdom was 'unique', he writes. This was crushing to 'minha dignidade' -- my dignity.

SOME of the blame Amaral heaps on his junior colleagues is almost certainly justified.

On the night of May 3, 2007, Amaral -- who had been brought up in Lisbon -- was the head of the CID in the Algarve town of Portimao, a few minutes down the coastal highway from the resort village of Luz.

He says he was informed by phone of Madeleine's disappearance that evening, at midnight. The National Guard -- a junior branch of the police services -- had been on the scene.

But before specialised detectives arrived, he says, Apartment 5A of the Ocean Club complex had become the scene of a virtual 'arrial' -- a party.

A host of National Guard personnel, dogs, resort staff, members of the McCann family and friends and other people had trampled through it, damaging potential evidence.

Even at this early stage, he began to see conspiracy theories: 'We had to wonder if that kind of contamination was unconscious or intentional.'

The next day Amaral seemed appalled that the police were visited first by the British Consul in Portimao and then no less a person than the British ambassador.

'It was not normal,' he exclaims. 'Who was this couple? Who were their friends? We did not need diplomats. We needed quick answers to the questions' -- particularly from the English police whose tardiness he was already critcising.

He complained that, from the start, ' politics and diplomacy seemed to be shaping the initiative'.

In particular, he felt he was not being helped as much as he could by the British authorities.

He says he was told that British security services had bugged the McCanns and their friends. 'If that was the case, information [from the bugging] was never given to us.'

Amaral was suspicious of the motives of the British police officers who arrived in Luz on May 7. He ordered a 'shadow' on the senior British officer in Luz.

'I want to know what they are doing,' he told his subordinate. 'You will escort them day and night.'

Amaral writes how he had wanted Madeleine's UK medical records, but they 'were not given to us because of huge difficulties raised in England.

'They certainly would have been very important. Why were they not given to us? The British judicial system was not very co-operative in these matters, which was regrettable.'

More conspiracies and paranoia.  (Blogger note: See wikileaks cables re: British police / McCanns)  Early on, Amaral fixed on alleged inconsistencies in the testimonies of the main individuals in the case and their 'bizarre' behaviour. Anything else was a distraction.

Amaral was clearly uncomfortable about the investigation's international profile, and perturbed that senior British politicians, such as Gordon Brown, had shown interest.

This is understandable, for he was a provincial policeman. Yet in his book, he interprets such political involvement as a sign of forces at work beyond his control.

But wasn't this simply the case of a man out of his depth and looking for excuses?

It seems extraordinary, for example, that it was not until July that specialist forensic sniffer dogs were brought in, and from the UK. By that stage, Amaral admits in his book, the case had reached a 'dead end'.

But while the dogs' findings -- they are said to have detected spots of blood in the apartment from which Madeleine had disappeared and other matter in the boot of the McCanns' hire car -- appeared to confirm his own well-advanced theories, the development also led to the final, fatal split with his British colleagues.  (Blogger note:  Another video of the British sniffer dogs at work in the McCann case)

When a British police superintendent arrived and declared himself 'disappointed' at the inconclusive nature of results from the UK Forensic Science Service, Amaral could see only two possibilities.

One, that the British technician responsible was incompetent. The other that there was deliberate obfuscation.

He writes conspiratorially of the subsequent 'nervousness of British police . . . who wanted to know everything that was going on'.

As the British police urged caution, Amaral became ever more convinced of his theories. He rationalised that the UK police were reluctant to get drawn into a prosecution on foreign soil.

On September 7 last year, the McCanns were made official suspects. Soon afterwards, they left for the UK. Amaral was astounded by the alleged reaction of the British police who maintained their links with the couple.

He argues that after Kate and Gerry were made suspects, the British police should have severed their links with the couple.

'It happened with the Portuguese police. But this rupture did not occur between the couple and the British police.'

The point is that the British force was still pursuing the possibility of a kidnap.

Tension between the two police forces had been growing for some time and in that month when the McCanns were declared suspects, it erupted.

When a tourist picture taken of a woman in Morocco with a blonde child on her back appeared in the UK Press, Amaral was furious.

'I asked a colleague to contact the English police to ask what was happening,' he writes. 'The answer could not have been more unreal and absurd . . . They had received the photo and showed it immediately [to the McCanns and the media] without consulting us, who were in charge of the criminal investigation.'

His frustration was perhaps understandable. The child was almost immediately shown not to be Madeleine. And Amaral's team was being overwhelmed by both well-meaning and malicious reports of sightings from all over the world.

In the following month, October, Amaral was removed as co-ordinator of the investigation. He claims it was not because of 'incompetence, but because of an inconvenient outburst'. In a terse exchange, he had accused British detectives of chasing leads only that Gerry and Kate McCann wanted following up.

A journalist had phoned him to ask about an alleged sighting of Madeleine in Lisbon, information that had been e-mailed to British police.

Amaral -- who had long since given up on the theory that the little girl had been kidnapped -- writes that he gave an 'irrational answer' demanding that the British police should fall in line with the Portuguese. 

He was sacked by fax and recalled to regional headquarters in Faro.

He says his dismissal was 'orchestrated by the British media'. The strategy was simple: 'Attack the investigation and portray Portugal as a Third World country with a judicial system that is completely obsolete.'

But he also writes, astonishingly, that higher powers were at work.

'The British Prime Minister had spoken to (the UK police) asking to confirm my resignation.

'We didn't know the reason for such an interest in such a humble Portuguese public employee.

'We didn't know what happened backstage of the Lisbon Treaty negotiations, before the signing of the Treaty.'

But he adds, darkly:

'For first time in Policia Judiciria history, an employee lost his job due to external influences.'

Reflecting on his dismissal, he lambasts the British police, who had failed to deliver background reports on the McCanns and their friends 'though we knew they had them'. (Blogger note: See the Gaspar's statement re: David Payne - withheld by the British police.)

'They came to Portugal not as an act against our sovereignty, but in a display of international police co-operation.'

Yet such co-operation, he argues, requires a high degree of mutual trust. 'Soon we realised it would not be like that,' he writes, pointing out that when the McCanns finally returned home to Britain, so did the British police.

'We felt they were ordered to stay in Portugal only for the McCann couple rather than Madeleine. She vanished here. So what is the reason for the UK police to leave? It is a question no one can answer.'

But as far as Amaral was concerned, the answer was clear, apparently. It was a conspiracy against his investigation.

In his book, he writes that he believes Madeleine died in Apartment 5A on the night of May 3 last year. That is all we can report here of his beliefs.

His account begins with a reminder that Britain and Portugal enjoyed a centuries-old political alliance.

It ends with repeated and rather ludicrious allusions to a historic Portuguese notable who had defied the demands of an overweening British ally.

A local crime reporter, who knows the Portuguese police intimately, said that Amaral remains very well-respected among his former brethren, several of whom appeared in Lisbon to support him.

'He was a copper's copper. The only criticism or doubt I have heard about him is that he may not be an open-minded policeman.

'One policeman told me that when he thinks something has happened, he excludes all other lines of inquiry.
'And that can sometimes be a dangerous trait.'

(Blogger note: See wikileaks cables re: British police / McCanns)

Indeed. The McCann case was the most high profile of Amaral's career -- the pressures were enormous -- and the only one, it is said by supporters, that he failed to crack.

That hurt him deeply. But his hurt was nothing near that of the McCanns, who lost their child and have now, once again, been maligned in his book.

Continue Reading... Labels: A Verdade da Mentira, Daily Mail, Gaspar statement, Goncalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral, Policia Judiciaria, The Truth of the Lie, WikiLeaks

A conversation with ... Pinto da Costa

Research on the contrary
A conversation with ... Pinto da Costa
26 July 2008
Jornal de Notícias

In the book "The truth of lies", Gonçalo Amaral, the coordinator of the PJ that was removed from the "Maddie case", has no doubts about the girl's death. Pinto da Costa followed his reasoning.

Specialist in Forensic Medicine, Pinto da Costa will meet the thesis defended by Gonçalo Amaral, who points to the death of Madeleine McCann. The teacher did not perceive why the analysis done by the British laboratory is not conclusive and is convinced that sooner or later the truth will eventually know. The big problem, according to the president of the Portuguese section of Transparency International, has resided in the wrong way as an investigation was conducted. Pinto da Costa believes that the chance of death should have been considered from the outset.

Believed in the thesis defended by Gonçalo Amaral, that Madeleine McCann died accidentally in the night of his disappearance?

It seems to me that it is possible that this has happened, basing myself on the fact that sniffer dogs had indicated the existence of a corpse, and also blood with the genetic profile of the girl.

The English laboratory says that the analyzes are not conclusive...

What the lab found was that, for a total of 19 alleles, 15 are present in the sample examined. However, in Portugal, Treble hooks to the authenticity of membership, ie, in paternity tests, we used 15 alleles. Therefore, the results from the British laboratory are highly significant. It seems to me, therefore, pertinent that the Thinking and the child may have died in the apartment. Another hypothesis is that it may have died out and then the body had been brought inside.

There is, in Portugal, the technical capability to do this kind of analysis?

Yes, could have been made in Portugal. I think that both the Forensic Science Laboratory of the Judicial Police and the various institutes of legal medicine are able to do. That has not happened perhaps for the people concerned are UK citizens.

The explanation, Gonçalo Amaral, the body that have been frozen or preserved in cold for more than 20 days, it also seems plausible?

What strikes me is that the body would not be totally putrefied. There are situations in which the corpse is kept more or less without having any substance, such as ice, for example. Moreover, we should not forget that this is the body of a child and and not an adult, decayable more quickly.

Believed that the truth will be discovered?

Yes, when all concerned to distance themselves. The neighbors get angry, to know the truth. The process has so many contradictions, so it is impossible to have a truth.

And what is the origin of so many contradictions?

The fact that the investigation had begun badly. Should [have broken] the positive hype and think that the child was dead. Also because the existence of abuse is a reality and, in such cases, the number one suspect is the father, not stepfather, uncle or anyone else. Moreover, the site should have been immediately put into custody to avoid circumvention, because the site survey is essential. The parents have launched the hypothesis of abduction, but who does criminal investigation must have "cuca cold" as they say in Brazil, and it cannot deviate from the essential elements. The investigation was done in reverse.

Investigação ao contrário
A conversa com... Pinto da Costa
26 July 2008
Jornal de Notícias

No livro "A verdade da mentira", Gonçalo Amaral, o coordenador da PJ que foi afastado do "caso Maddie", não tem dúvidas sobre a morte da menina. Pinto da Costa segue-lhe o raciocínio.

Especialista em Medicina Legal, Pinto da Costa vai ao encontro da tese defendida por Gonçalo Amaral, que aponta para a morte de Madeleine McCann. O professor não percebe por que razão as análises feitas pelo laboratório britânico não são conclusivas e manifesta a convicção de que, mais cedo ou mais tarde, a verdade acabará por se saber. O grande problema, segundo o presidente da secção portuguesa da Transparência Internacional, residiu na forma errada como foi feita a investigação. Pinto da Costa entende que a hipótese de morte deveria ter sido equacionada logo desde o início.

Acredita na tese defendida por Gonçalo Amaral, segundo a qual Madeleine McCann morreu acidentalmente na noite do seu desaparecimento?

Parece-me que é possível que tal tenha acontecido, baseando-me na circunstância de os cães pisteiros terem assinalado a existência de um cadáver e, também, de sangue com o perfil genético da menina.

O laboratório inglês diz que as análises não são conclusivas...

O que o laboratório concluiu foi que, num total de 19 alelos, 15 estão presentes na amostra examinada. Ora, em Portugal, para garatirmos a autenticidade da filiação, ou seja, nos testes de paternidade, utilizamos 15 alelos. Portanto, os resultados obtidos pelo laboratório britânico são altamente significativos. Parece-me, por isso, pertinente o raciocício de que a criança poderá ter morrido no apartamento. Outra hipótese é que poderá ter morrido fora e depois o corpo ter sido levado para dentro.

Não há em Portugal capacidade técnica para fazer esse tipo de análises?

Sim, podiam ter sido feitas em Portugal. Penso que tanto o Laboratório da Polícia Científica da Polícia Judiciária como os diversos institutos de Medicina Legal têm condições para as fazer. Isso não aconteceu talvez por as pessoas em causa serem de nacionalidade inglesa.

A explicação, de Gonçalo Amaral, de que o corpo terá sido congelado ou conservado em frio, durante mais de 20 dias, também lhe parece plausível?

O que me parece é que o corpo não estaria totalmente putrefacto. Há situações em que o cadáver se conserva mais ou menos sem haver adição de qualquer substância, como o gelo, por exemplo. Além disso, convém não esquecer que se trata do corpo de uma criança e não de um adulto, que apodrece mais rapidamente.

Acredita que a verdade vai ser descoberta?

Sim, quando todas as entidades envolvidas se distanciarem. Zangam-se as comadres, sabem-se as verdades. O processo tem tantas contradições que, assim, é impossível haver uma verdade.

E o que está na origem de tantas contradições?

O facto de a investigação ter começado mal. Devia-se ter partido do exagero positivo e pensar que a criança foi morta. Até porque a existência de maus-tratos é uma realidade e, nestes casos, o suspeito número um é o pai, e não o padrasto, o tio ou qualquer outra pessoa. Por outro lado, o local deveria ter sido imediatamente posto em custódia para evitar a sua violação, porque o exame do local é fundamental. Os pais lançaram a hipótese de rapto, mas quem faz investigação criminal deve ter "a cuca fria", como se diz no Brasil, e não se pode desviar do essencial. A investigação foi feita ao contrário.

Continue Reading... Labels: Forensic Science Services, Goncalo Amaral, Gonçalo Amaral, Policia Judiciaria